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6,5 × 52 мм Манлихер-Каркано

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 PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 23:37 pm   
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Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 20:13 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Reval
Не совсем по теме вопрос, да и скорее всего он имеет больше отношение к историкам нежели к спортсменам. Но может тут всё же найдётся кто то, кто интересуется историей оружия....

В результате поиска, была обнаружена гильза 6,5 × 52 мм Манлихер-Каркано с клеймом А.А С-40.
Винтовка под такой патрон была на вооружении Финской армии и использовалась финами в зимней войне. Могла ли такая винтовка с соответствующим боеприпасом использоваться в РККА или её тыловых частях (охрана аэродромов и тд и тп) на момент 1944-195Х годах ?

к чему мой вопрос? требуется идентифицировать временные рамки возникновения объекта у которого была найдена данная гильза.

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Jevgeni Iordanski

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 PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:12 am   
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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 14:50 pm
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Во время зимней войны шведы поставляли свои Маузеры 6.5х55 финнам, а гильза от итальянской винтовки в этих широтах довольно экзотичный артефакт, учитывая, что у финнов были массово свои мосинки.

Диверсионные группы в тылу РККА снабжались бы уж точно мосинками.

Может, гораздо позже был выстрел из трофейной винтовки сделан каким-нибудь охотником?

Или сам Ли-Харви Освальд тренировался из своей винтовки в бытность в СССР?


With the Winter War looming the Finnish military was scrambling to gather enough weapons to arm their troops under complete mobilization plus have weapons in reserve or for second tier troops and rear echelon personnel. In the days leading up to the winter war in 1939 Finland looked to Italy under suggestion from German sources as a possible purchase point for weapons- primarily the Italian short rifle model of 1938 chambered in the new 7.35mm cartridge. In a little back history Italy had decided in 1935 to develop a cartridge that offered better trajectory and stopping power than the standard 6.5x52mm round nosed bullet in use with the 1891 series Carcano rifles. By 1938 the round was adopted with a cupro nickel jacketed bullet and a spitzer shape allowing for a flatter trajectory and a rather unstable ballistic quality upon impact to a soft target creating a formidable bullet wound. Essentially the new round was a 6.5x52mm cartridge case necked down and expanded to accommodate the larger 7.35mm spitzer bullet which was copied in its design from the British MkllV bullet. To accommodate the new round the Italian military had decided to "modernize" the small arm that was the current standard rifle based on the 1891 Mannlicher Carcano designs and wanted to develop an intermediate sized rifle that was both lighter and handier than the longer 1891 based version. The model 1938 short rifle or "corto" was designed and chambered for the new 7.35x51mm cartridge and would employ a 1 in 10 rifling twist to accommodate the larger bullet and to produce a flatter trajectory. The rifle also would be developed with a fixed rear sight set at 300m as it was determined through experience in Africa and Abyssinia that the soldiers were not changing the ranges on their rifles between distances of 300 and 100m. The new rifle would continue to employ the 6rd en bloc charger clip that would allow 6 rounds to be charged at one time or any number less than that. Without a charger clip though the rifle was essentially a single shot weapon and was considered a flaw. The chargers for the previous versions of the Carcano rifle and carbines were made of brass and the new 1938 rifle would employ a blued steel charger clip. The model 1938 rifle would additionally be issued with an unique folding knife bayonet that could be fixed to the rifle and the front release button depressed allowing the blade to be pulled forward then rotated back under the barrel and into a recessed groove in the fore stock. Once in position the blade would be pushed back toward the muzzle locking it in place folded under the barrel. The new knife bayonet was an attempt to issue both a compact bayonet for the rifle and a fighting knife if need be. Later after 1940 when the rifle was discontinued in production many of these folding bayonets would be welded fixed open losing the ability to be folded up.
With the adoption of the short rifle m/1938 and production beginning at the three major Italian arms facilities of Terni, Beretta and a small production at FNA Bresica which differed in that it had a full length upper handguard. Production began in 1938 and rifles were accepted by the state arms factory in 1939. The date of manufacture will be on the right side of the barrel followed by the Roman numerals XVl, XVll and XVlll. The Roman numbers denote the year of Mussolini's rule. In the case of the m/38 "Fucile Corto" that would translate to the 16, 17 and 18th year of his rule. Production soon halted on the m/38 short rifle with the storm clouds of WW2 on the horizon and Italy being faced with the inability to produce enough rifles in such a short time and the ensuing caliber difficulty it would create with no less then 4 calibers in use in the army at that time with the 6.5, 7.35 and 8mm Breda MG round as well as the early 6.5 low pressure rds used in the obsolete Vetterli rifles. So production of the 1938 cartridge in 7.35x51 was halted and all ammunition production for rifles was resumed in the earlier 6.5x52mm cartridge. The model 1938 short rifle continued however to be produced but now in the 6.5mm chambering up into 1942.
Now faced with a large surplus of rifles that were deemed to be problematic the Italians were delighted that Finland had come calling in the search for arms and ammunition as well as accompanying items such as mines and hand grenades and helmets. All of these items in short supply and high on Finnish want lists with war with Russia heating up. Italy agreed to sell to Finnish representatives of the Ministry of Defense in February of 1940- 100,000 of the new m/38 7.35mm rifles that were deemed expendable. In addition they also purchased with the rifles -ammunition, bayonets and slings. The rifles however did not arrive in time to see fighting in the Winter War (1939-1940) but arrived in the spring of 1940 after the close of hostilities. Desperately short on arms the rifles were immediately put to use in arming field artillery units, coastal defense forces and anti aircraft units to free up Mosin Nagant rifles for the front line troops. The rifles also were issued to the Lotta Savard auxiliary in which some of the women had under gone training and were posted to forward listening posts for aircraft interception and directional locator's. Additional rifles were dispersed to civilians and civilian organization in the north of Finland during the Continuation War (1941-1944) to guard against Soviet partisan and air dropped incursions of saboteurs. About 20,000 rifles saw combat with Finnish forces at the front lines. The Italian short rifle was not very popular with Finnish troops at the front due to the availability of cartridges and the fixed rear sight. It was often swapped out from captured rifle cache's and when Finnish models could be obtained at the front in resupply.
It was however rather well received with the artillery and anti aircraft units. I know of a local gentleman who was a corporal in the Finnish Army during the Winter War and into the Continuation War serving first in radio and signals and then moving onto a Anti Aircraft unit with radio communications. He was issued the m/38 short rifle and was rather fond of the gun, saying it was smaller, lighter and easier to handle while in transport or in heavy forested areas than the long 1891 Mosin or the 91/30's captured in great numbers from Russian forces. He kept his Italian Fucile Corto m/38 throughout the war and said he never considered trading in his "Terni" rifle. I've also had the pleasure to speak with a Lotta that was also issued a m/38 short rifle in a directional aircraft observational role. While not fond of the stout recoil for her she was fond of the fact that it was shorter and easier for her to manage climbing into the observation towers she was posted at. Her experience was rather odd as I had done a large exhibition for the Finnish Grand Festival some years back and she saw the rifle in the display and immediately recognized it and told me the stories of the gun and having to shoot it only once- when a small group Russian paratroop/saboteurs infiltrated into her area to sabotage rail lines and observation towers.
In closing, the m/38 rifles chambered for 7.35mm in Finnish inventory that survived the war in good condition were sold to InterArmco in 1957 and numbered 74,300 m/38 rifles as well as all existing stockpiles of ammunition and what remained of the bayonets. Some bayonets were retained and used in training and for experimental purposes on the first Finnish assault rifles m/60 and 62 as a folding bayonet type. The rifles were sold to InterArmco in trade to obtain surplus British Sten sub machine guns to supplement Finnish inventory of the m/31 Suomi smg's. The Sten's were held in reserve and used only in a training capacity until they too were slated obsolete and sold as surplus to InterArmco again in the 1970's.


Самурай без меча подобен самураю с мечом. Но только без меча... (С)

 PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 06:08 am   

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 23:15 pm
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Siin natuke juttu antud relvade kasutamisest Eestis.Suures koguses olevat neid toodud Soome,peale Talvsõda.Mitmete puuduste tõttu ei soovinud sõdurid neid kasutada ja vahetasid esimesel võimalusel Mossini vindi vastu.

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